You're disgusting, you really are. Imagine if someone else had posted as you just have, but had cited "anti-Jewish" instead of evil "anti-Islam" bile. I'm glad you're on the losing side, you vile, vile man.

I like the "losing side" there. Apparently you too perceive a radical transformation ahead, yet still feel free to delegitimise any opposition to this transformation. By such words you prove Mr Pollard's point.

And yes, it is legitimate to criticise the Jewish faith, like the Islamic faith, if you believe it inspires people to do wrong acts. I don't see much of a case for that view, though.

Being called a vile man by some tosser who doesn't have the cojones to use his real name is almost something to be proud of.

Cummins' piece cuts right to heart of the problem. Its the Muslims duty to convince us that people like that cretin Mullah feted by Ken isn't does not speak for them. Its not for us to accept Jew-hating, homophobic, mysogonistic arseholes just because his followers have votes. (Its not like they will ever vote Tory anyway.)

If I were a Muslim I'd be very, very afraid. Here's a thought experiment: it's 1937, and 19 Jewish extremists have massacred 3,000 German civilians. Furthermore, a very significant segment of the Jewish population has pledged to replace secular European society with Orthodox Judaism. Now fast-forward to the present day, and ask yourself how history would have judged the Holocaust. With horror, no doubt, but with the same horror? Had 1930's Judaism been a militant, expansionist creed, it wouldn't have justified the Holocaust, but it might have explained it. I have a nasty feeling that in fifty years' time we will be looking back at the genocide (religiocide?) of Islam with a mixture of self-loathing and relief. [Obligatory disclaimer for the intellectually challenged: prediction is not advocacy.]

Gillies: Look at the part played by Jewish communists in massacring Christians in the Russian Revolution and Ukraine famine. As late as 1937, according to Simon Sebag Montefiore's life of Stalin, "5.7% of the [Communist] Party were Jews yet they formed a majority in the Government". Nazism was one reaction against the fear that, without seeking mass forcible conversion to Judaism, secular Jews who had lost their moral bearings were trying to take control of Christian Europe by communist infiltration and agitation. It was a perception shared at times by Winston Churchill: for instance, in his celebrated article of 1920 in the "Illustrated Sunday Herald".

Political Zionism appeared to post-Great War European leaders to be a safety valve. It encouraged Jews to create their socialistic paradise in the Holy Land. Hence German Zionists were welcomed by Hitler and collaborated with him. Per contra, many British Jewish leaders, such as Montagu, opposed the Balfour Declaration because they thought it would pressurise their community to leave their adopted country.

Well Jews did have a major role to play in the rise of communism however they were soon turned on by the non-Jews. There were several anti-Jewish pograms in the Soviet Union.

An interesting point, although I'm not sure it doesn't bolster my argument. If Jewish involvement in Communist atrocities can be linked to the rise of Naziism, why shouldn't Muslim attacks on the West be used as justification (however spurious) for a similar response today? I think it's also a very debatable point that it was Judaism per se that informed the Communist proclivities of so many of the early Bolsheviks. I've seen it written that the logic-chopping that intense Talmudic scholarship requires makes one more vulnerable to the lures of Communism, with its emphasis on dialectic, but I have no idea whether that is true or to what degree. Were the Jewish Communists eliminating 'class enemies' as Jews or as Communists?

We can adduce one other point, although again I'm not sure if this goes for or against my argument: the very curious relationship between the ultra-Left like A.N.S.W.E.R., the SWP and George Galloway's mob on one hand, and radical Muslim organisations on the other. To what extent does this mirror the prominence of Jews in the rise of Communism?

Ultimately, I think only a limited parallel can be drawn (this is why I posed the question as a Gedankenexperiment). Hayek writes that the antagonism between Bolshevism and Fascism was in essence a turf war. There's no comparable countervailing movement against the Left/Islamist axis at present, but I fear what such a movement would look like were it to arise.

" ....would destroy the BNP as quickly as Margaret Thatcher despatched the National Front in 1979 when she warned that, unless immigration was curbed, Britain would be "swamped" by "an alien culture". "

Was immigration curbed ? Or is your point that Thatcher was either wrong or didn't mean it, but it was a good way of cutting the ground from under the NFs feet ?

If you think she was right, do we have a problem ?

I can only say that I feel increasingly grateful and lucky that my Jewish grandparents left Russia and came to America.

I don't think that there is a single party that I could vote for in a UK election. It seems that Jews are squeezed between antisemitism on the left and antisemitism on the right and are left with no where to turn.

I think that it is fair to say that if one employs classic antisemitic stereoytpes, then one has crossed the line between valid criticism of Israel and antisemitism. By this standard, a large majority of the British left and anti-war movement were already anti-semitic with or without the addition of Islamic antisemites.

Gillies: Marxist Jews shed their religion, but not the phenotype of highly developed verbal-ability IQ (reasoning and rhetoric) which they inherited from generations of Talmudic scholars. Hence the disproportionate numbers of teachers, diplomats, publicists, lawyers, interrogators etc in the Soviet leadership's ranks: tasks requiring the gift of the gab.

Stalin was formerly supposed to have purged most of the Politburo Jews by 1937 (e.g. Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin). But as late as 1939, Molotov, who was married to a Jewess, was negotiating the Nazi-Soviet Pact while running a Foreign Ministry which, he lamented in a letter to her, was more than half Jewish in personnel. His predecessor, Litvinov, was Jewish, as were all but one of the Soviet ambassadors whom Stalin had intended to put on trial for treason in 1939. The senior ranks of secret police were also heavily Jewish.

These features of the USSR were interpreted in Europe as helping to explain hostility to its "capitalist" nations and the savagery with which Christian peasants were persecuted and religious observance hampered. OTOH, Soviet Jews were given their own (not very inviting) autonomous region, the Birobidzhan in Siberia, where they could speak Yiddish and go to temple. Stalin boasted that he had outdone the Tsars, who never gave the Jews their own homeland. The real anti-Jewish purges (attacks on cosmopolitanism, Doctors' Plot, would-be emigrants to Israel) only began after WW2 and were never genocidal in scope.

I am neither Jewish, BNP nor anything else except anglo-saxon, neither conservative nor labour - just one of the great middle masses.

However, I have been painstakingly gathering info on Islam and the muslims for some time from whatever can be proved to be dispassionate sources that not too many people decry, especially from within their ranks. The purpose was to better understand the misapprehension most of us are under regarding them.

The resultant file is very worrying. No doubt many Muslims are devout and that's to be commended but they are also seriously deluded. This is a very destabilizing, alien movement, steeped in blood, which has absolutely no place in Britain. Make no mistake, it is corrosive in the extreme. I am currently living in a sensitive position alongside these people and it's an eye opener. So I hope you'll forgive the pseudonym below, which is my publishing name.

Britain must but won't resist, as it has never resisted. Brits are too soft hearted by half and think they'll probably muddle through as usual. No such luck this time, against these people. These are fanatics, pure and simple.

Call me naive, say I'm living in a dream world but why can't Britain still be The Railway Children, the Yorkshire Dales, the Lake District, Miss Marple, red pillar boxes and so on? Britain is the rugby team, the RAF Tornado, gardeners' question time, the 5 o'clock football results, the shipping forecast, the Fastnet race. Let's not throw all this away.

These n'er-do-wells have no place here with their special schools and their carping and whining. Look, they must knuckle down and accept the terms and conditions of the historical basis of this nation. When in Rome ... The alternative is action from above. Time for a Churchill, not a Chamberlain.

'Rivers of blood', I'm afraid has turned out to be an apt scenario. God help us all.

I agree pretty much with the last poster other than on two points. The Tornado is not British it is an British, Italian, German collaborative development! Also the invocation to ‘God help’ us rather echoes the problem of Islam. As an aside I’d sooner stick to the facts and completely avoid Ad Hominem attacks which I consider completely inappropriate; indeed they detract from the point.

I’m also not sure what all the Jewish stuff in other posts is for, this issue pertains to Islam.

Anyway back to the point: The problem is that by far the majority of Muslims are simply completely incapable of reacting in calm, measured terms to criticism of their religion.

By far and away most Moslems take the Koran as the literal word of Allah transmitted perfectly through their alleged prophet Mohamed – documented in the Koran, the Moslem’s own book as a violent, misogynistic pedophile.

Most Christians have moved away from a literal Biblical interpretation, (apart from a few Methodists and worrying number of American biblical literalists) which is just as well as the Bible contains some odious stuff not that far off some of the hateful violence invoking bile contained in the Koran.

The problem IS the Islamic religion. It is intrinsically intolerant, highly misogynistic and violence is its abiding state. This will remain the case until Islamcists succeed in securing a World Caliphate or Islam morphs or is forced to morph into something more benign. Pretending otherwise is simply a caustic cocktail of ignorance, denial and wishful thinking. As an aside the silence of feminists or those who would speak for equal rights for women on Islam is simply Deafening.

Liberal democracies are unwise to tolerate Islam’s intolerance as they clearly do, they are just delaying the inevitable reckoning. Too few right across the mainstream non extreme political spectrum in the developed World understand what is happening. The neocons have got this one right but unfortunately their agenda is similarly odious and rather mirrors that of the Islamcists. Another religion is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

I posit that it is totally inevitable that there will be more horrific attacks by Islamcists militants against soft civilian targets, Britain will get hit sooner or later and get it’s wake up call. This will gradually serve to create the resolve necessary to build the critical mass of political will necessary to face up to and address the problem and start forcing the change necessary in Islam. The groundswell of opinion is already there, and this groundswell of opinion is not prejudiced its basic sentiment is well sound. Alas at the moment it is only expressed at the fringes, this will change. This is nothing to do with race whatsoever. This is a very real threat.

As an aside the best indicator for peaceful co-existence is Liberal democracy (see the work of RJ Rummel http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html ), this is incompatible with the Islamic mindset inculcated into many if not most Moslems, until this changes there will be problems.

Nick Nolastname posits, "This will remain the case until Islamicists succeed in securing a World Caliphate or Islam morphs or is forced to morph into something more benign" and "to build the critical mass of political will necessary to face up to and address the problem and start forcing the change necessary in Islam".

Forgive me but how can any change be effected in Islam itself? How can it morph into something more benign? Islam is a belief system, which is unchangeable. Here are some key tenets of it:

Surah 8:72-73 essentially addresses those who “enter into exile in lands where Islam is not the dominant force, to pursue the adoption of Islam and to view any indigenous reaction to that as oppression and persecution against Islam, thereby requiring Jihad against the infidels.”

Surah 9:5 addresses the mode of operation: “then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them.”

al-Baydawi (d. 1276 AD comments on Surah 9:29: “Fight Jews and Christians because they violated the origin of their faith and they do not believe in the religion of the truth (Islam), which abrogated all other religions. Fight them until they pay the Ziziya tax with submission and humiliation.”

The Islamic philosopher and historian, Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406 AD), stated: “In the Muslim community, the Holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.”

In my first post, I posited: "No doubt many Muslims are devout and that's to be commended but they are also seriously deluded." (By the way, hardly ad hominem, would you think?]

Nick’s [maybe ad hominem] argument, on "Mohammed ... a violent, misogynistic pedophile" detracts somewhat from the issue, even though he is factually 100% correct. It is not the person of Mohammed we should be attacking, perhaps, but rather the exiled devotees of today who are planning to follow the above Surahs to the letter.

A simplistic solution is to demand an oath of loyalty to the Crown and the parliamentary system of government by all groups within Britain who have recognized security concerns about them eg. convicted criminals, BNP, Muslims, immigrant families and any other group whose literature or belief system is at odds with traditional British society. In the Muslims’ case the problem is again Surah 9:5, which commands Muslims to honour treaties but at the end of the treaty period, to slaughter the infidel.

Islam is insidious in its ability to frighten detractors into silence [eg. attempts on Rushdie]. One can’t say one word publicly against it for fear of offending Muslim sensibilities. Meanwhile, they silently multiply, even capturing such key figures as Prince Charles, who was quoted as saying that he would rather be seen as ‘Defender of the Faiths’ than ‘Defender of the Faith’, upon his coronation. As for Diana, she had already gone over to the other side.

I used the expression ‘God help us all’ at the end of the last post, which Nick took issue with. However, as I believe in one God, who is still embodied in the official wording of this nation state, I make no apology for this and reiterate them here. I also made reference to rivers of blood, which I sincerely hope will not occur but can you see any realistic alternative?

I have seen events unfold, as we all have: the slaughter of children in Beslan, the Madrid bombing, 9/11, the Bali bombing...; the common denominator is Islam. I was actually slightly traumatised by what happened in Beslan. This was the worst, most sickening atrocity, and done in the name of a religion?! After Beslan I went and bought a Koran and have been reading it to see for myself how Islam can inspire such evil. I have come to the conclusion that the Koran can very easily be used to justify murder. Really easily, if you believe it. It's not like the Bible (where violence is described, but certainly not advocated, especially not in the New Testament which supercedes the Old. Jesus's teachings on violence couldn't be clearer: we are to love even our enemies and pray for them!)

I don't want to live in a Muslim country. I have lived in two muslim countries, and I don't mind there being countries for muslims. But I want this to be a country for non-muslims. And I am worried by proposals to introduce a Religious Hatred Incitement Act and legislation to incorporate muslim prayer into the working day. What is this crap? Our politicians are idiots.

Adam Clark has it right. A word about Beslan though.

Beslan is very close to where I was stationed, so it was with great interest that I listened to the deafening silence from the Muslim world over here when it happened.

The prevailing non-Muslim (not necessarily anti-) opinion was that there was a hell of a lot more to this than just Muslims at work and it may be too simplistic to just lay this one only at their door.

These people were not only highly organized, highly trained and supported by big money but they had an infrastructure in place which allowed them free movement across a highly scrutinized landscape where, if a pin drops, it's seen and heard.

We're talking 'blind eye' here. By whom and for what are two other questions, of course. I'm fairly certain about 'by whom', myself but to paraphrase Woodrow Wilson, we'd 'better not speak about it above a whisper'.

I think that it's easy to disagree with some of the things stated here, and of course Muslims (like my girlfriend Ray) might well have difficulty with Islamophobia, not least because it undermines their right to live and be part of us. For me, it's hard to accept an imposed ideology that I am a bigot and that my country tries to do Muslims down. I don't believe it. I don't doubt that many countries have an agenda which oscillates between expediancy and historical mindset, and I must listen to complaints that I reject views I am uncomfortable with. Yet I am a citizen of the world, and have my own thoughts of the failings or greatness of my country. But if primarily a private person, often I aspire to take on the failings of the world, engage people who haven't turned out like me, work towards resolving problems, and yes, fighting for my life and the lives of people who want to matter, should matter, do matter.. Others may or may not agree with me. I hold my beliefs purely for my own benefit, and I acknowledge the intrinsic selfishness of what I say.

Mistakes have been made in our dealings with foreign powers, and in our own assessments. But is Islam just another foreign threat that must be divided and conquered, repressed and humiliated, since that punishment should be reserved for enemies, people who wish to enslave or kill our people. Ray shows me a side of Islam that is pure love, perhaps intolerant at times, perhaps jealous, perhaps fearful or running from itself. It shows me a reflection of myself that I cannot ignore. Islam spends a lot of time running around itself (looking for resolution?), and this is something that we have got involved with.

My assessment of current events is the following:
· There is increased unity (in activism and agenda) amongst Muslims, hoping to influence a resolution to the Palestinian issues, and to highlight inequality and ineffective struggle against established interests.
· A similar increased unity and purpose will infuse the UK, and accross Europe an engagement of Islamic political issues.
· A resultant polarisation of politics, including a tendency to try to harden defensive policies; will encourage the middle to make increased efforts to (A) nullify perceived extremist views (eg: BNP, or militant Islam) and (B) intensify efforts to resolve the Palestinian issues (which is likely to fail, unless we are really very focused indeed).
· Feelings at street level will center on (A) blaming each other or Muslims for the current tensions, and (B) a tendency to either sleep with or declare war on the exotic new politicals.

If the Islamic freedom movement is to eventually be seen in the same light as the historical racial equality movement in the US, (as a force for RIGHT), this evolution (in liberal Europe) is set back by the waving of guns and threats. Mahatma Ghandi and Martin Luther King demonstrated that by far the most effective political tool against our militarily advanced UK is non-violent action.

In conclusion, the frustration that is evident in current street-level Islamic dialog centers on the inability to influence current affairs. The challenge for them is to change the vocabulary so that we don't have to feel that war is just around the corner. And our vocab, unless it stays in the privacy of the pub, should reflect that we have some understanding of what is happening. Because it is happening, and not all of it is welcome.

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