Are you really marching pro-Bush? Can I come?

As Melanie points out, most Americans, even the most Anglophile, don't have a clue at the intensity and spread of the contempt for the President.

The reverse is also true. most of Europe and the UK do not have a clue as to how contemptuous most ordinary Americans are, to what they regard as a traitorous, atheist, and lazy cabal of self-serving bureaucrats, particularly the French and the Germans, with UK not far behind.

While this stand-off situation exists there is bound to be a great deal of friction.

I think ernest young overstates the case for the Americans. Most Americans remain happily oblivious to the kind of vitriol that prevails on the Continent. There's nothing in the US to match that kind of hatred, (which is really a rather mild word to characterize the attitude of much of the Continentals) which gives Arab vitriol a run for its money.

But no, the trip won't be cancelled. For this long-scheduled state visit to be cancelled will be to allow the protesters to triumph, to allow them to intimidate the leadership of US and UK. I don't think that sends a good message.

I do hope Stephen is kidding when he says that he plans to be out there waving the Stars and Stripes. His spirit is to be commended, but I seriously fear for his safety. The British public is not on the level of the Arab public (or, for that matter, the French and Germans). I suspect that if the protests get out of hand, there might be a public backlash against them.

I think Ernest Young has a point. Not every American is informed on the finer points of the politics of European countries, to put it mildly. But I believe they are aware of the duplicity of France in particular and, to a lesser extent, Germany. Sadly, I also believe that they think they have a loyal ally in Britain, when a good tranche of the British population has a mindless, mal-informed hatred of George Bush. The British, by and large, believe what BBC commentators tell them to believe and there is no more viperous, toxic, America-hating organisation on earth than the BBC.

Verity - nice ludicrous statement there. Err, how about Al-Qaida?

& more generally, it all depends on the American. I imagine in the Bible Belt, godless Froggies and Krauts are roundly despised. Yet on my last visit to New York (in September), most of the people I met were as anti-Bush as your average Brit (and they brought the topic up, and they mostly weren't students or academics. Although they did all hate Bloomberg far more...)

The general British attitude to Bush and America (outside Indymedia circles) is - nice country, nice people, shame you've got -that- in charge. There is a large pro-Bush minority (hello Stephen!). There's a tiny, tiny, tiny minority that actually dislikes America (indeed, if you actually look at the BBC's coverage, it's anti-Bush and - to a lesser extent - anti-war - not anti-American).

Frankly, I am sick and tired of the vile and obscene expressions of unthinking hatred directed towards President Bush.

It's one thing to take a different political position to the President and the US government, it's quite another to descend to the gutter, nay, even into the sewers to find the form for expressing any opposing view. Look at The Guardian's Talk pages for guidance.

Yesterday's Indie expressed the view that the impotent outrage is grounded in the fact that 'we know (yes know) Bush is not up to the job, a moron' etc, etc.

They 'know', better than those who elected him, of his unfitness for office.

They 'know' that the electorate failed them.
And so on, and so on.

George W Bush is the WORST US president in history without one single shadow of doubt. It's so much harder to take seeing as he follows one of the best.

US and some UK conservatives praise him to the heavens (he's their man after all) but he still cannot manage majority support in the US. I keep seeing Sean Hannity and his ilk saying thigs like: "George Bush is the right man, in the right place, at the right time." Absolute tosh of course. But it is a lie that is being repeated over and over again.

We may never know how much the cavalier actions of the Bush Administration pre Sept 11 lead to those horrendous events. One thing's for certain, the outgoing Clinton administration bequeathed the new incumbents with a comprehensive anti-terrorist security strategy (praised by no less a person than Paul Bremer) that was criminally ignored until it was almost too late.

That said, the man is President of our closest ally and deserves the respect of all visiting dignitaries.

There is nowhere near the vitriol towards Europe in the U.S. as there is in Europe towards America. Even a state visit from the odious Jacques Chirac, the closest thing America has to a European villain, would be treated with indifference. The worst he would likely get would be jokes at the hands of late night comedians.

The psychic bond between the U.S. and Europe is fading and the two continents seem to be reacting in very different ways to this.

Ben - are you the same person as the one who was recently telling us - on another blog's comment section - how wonderful the NHS is because a squillion people have called their 24-hour Help Line, or some such?

If so, the views you express seem pretty much what one would expect.

The President of the United States schedules a trip to meet the Prime Minister. A crowd of self-indulgent, know-nothing wackos threatens to commit violence if he comes. The words “mob rule” spring to mind. I know that the sophisticated, peace-loving Europeans consider themselves superior to us ignorant, savage Americans, but in this case as so often is the case with European “wisdom,” my response is a humble snort of contempt. Stay away! Forget it. Let the world see just how superior the Europeans really are. Into the streets with your lovers of peace! In fact, bring ‘em on!

Ben,
Have to disagree with you on almost every point. Strange how you attack the man on his strong points, and ignore the areas where he is perceived to be weak, (Economy?).

Your solopistic statement that Clinton was 'one of the best', hardly matches the facts, but whatever!

He was, and has, a mandate in the US, despite the Dems oft repeated denial re 2000. (more solopistic wishful thinking). I dread to think of the situation if either Gore or the previous incumbent were in office at this time. Making the loudest noise, does not indicate a majority.

Clintons comprehensive terrorist strategy, (more wishful thinking), was proved inadequate by the events of 9/11. If you have proof of any criminal wrongdoing by GB, then I believe there is a formal enquiry that would like to hear from you.

As with all politicians, I am very leery of believing too much, 'in the man', until they have had a chance to prove themselves, and even then I am stinting in any praise. Bush is certainly different to most modern politicos, - refreshingly so. He does his best to keep his word, he seems to have integrity, - a value that is highlighted by his predecessors lack of it. He certainly works hard at the job of President, and, for a politician, he seems to be honest, despite what M.Moore and G.Palast would have us believe.

So he dislikes the UN, so what, so do most right thinking people, who see it as a bureuacratic trough for failed diplomats, and as a device for flattering the egos of various 'banana' republics. His low regard for 'Old Europe', is not surprising, given the behaviour of some of it's representatives, after all, he is not stupid, and neither are most Americans.

So what else is there to disagree with? Oh yes, he is a 'born again' Christian, this one really gets you socialists going. At least, being a Christian, he has had the benefit of an education that teaches right from wrong and basic morality, another trait highlighted by his predecessors lack of the same.

Seems he is disliked more for being a Republican than for any personal reasons.

If the British need someone to vent their ire on, surely the clique of Europeans trying to hijack their country, would be a more suitable target. To a man they are a corrupt, lying bunch of crooks, Of course, I forgot, such critisicm of a European might be construed as 'hate speech'.

Maybe all this fuss about the US is just a smoke screen to divert attention from the real problem of the Euro Constitution.

Ben,

Which part of the following is reasoned, adult comment on GWB's visit:

"In that case, he should be pelted with pretzels. Remember what happened last time Chimp Boy tried to eat a pretzel?"

Seen elsewhere on a message board and is one of the least offensive I've seen..

" traitorous, atheist, and lazy cabal of self-serving bureaucrats, particularly the French and the Germans, with UK not far behind."
I'll go with you on lazy cabal etc, ernest, but "traitorous"? i thought that meant betraying one's own country, not tugging the forelock to another. And "atheist"? I hear they're scarce in Iran. Perhaps the US just needs new allies.

I had to look up the word solopistic because even with my education I didn't have a clue what it meant! I assume the word intended for use was solipsistic which (after looking it up) means "the theory or view that the self is the only reality". There are perhaps 100 million Americans who may disagree with Ernest Young's rather solipsistic comment, but who am I to argue?!

Saying outloud the truth that the present President Bush is the worst president is US history was bound to enrage GOP adherents, but it is a truth that bears repeating. Also, I do not allege any underhand dealings on the part of the Bush administration prior to Sept 11, but let's not lie about the cackhanded way they went about dealing with terrorists before those planes flew into the World Trade Center. Clinton's strategy only proved ineffectual because it was never acted upon.

As for the rest of Mr Young's spiteful retort against Europe, reading through it again I got quite breathless at the relentless wave of scornful adjectives poured over our poor little heads!;-)

My post was not anti-American. Anti-Bush, absolutely - I believe the guy is fundamentally un-American. I believe the US to be a fundamentally good nation with values of freedom and democracy shared by all right-thinking peoples. That legacy is being sold out by the current cabal.

HTY - why do you think I volunteered to attend? Tarquin and his trustifarian mates don't scare me that much.

Dave,
Are you suggesting that the path taken by our politicians (of all parties), in order to get us into Europe, have been anything less than traitorous?

Surely such a sell-out qualifies as 'traitorous' by whatever definition you choose. Whether one is for or against going into Europe per se, the lack of, or even direct avoidance, of any direct genuine input from the populace suggests that they know such submission of our sovereignty has little support, in spite of rigged polls to the contrary.

Re 'atheist', do you really think that the Ba'athist distortion of Islam qualifies as a religion? Shame on you if you do...

Did you mean Iraq, or Iran? As I understand that the religious climate in the latter, while still severe, is getting a little easier than previous. Anyway, a little religion does no one any harm, quite the contrary, but that is a discussion for another day.

Ben,
OK, Bravo, I admit to making a spelling mistake, at least you caught my meaning. What a clever fellow you are.

There are perhaps 100 million Americans who may disagree with Ernest Young's rather solipsistic comment
So 100 million out of 300 million rather puts me in the majority. I think that you didn't get the meaning of the word after all.

Saying outloud the truth that the present President Bush is the worst president is US history was bound to enrage GOP adherents, but it is a truth that bears repeating.
Shouldn't you at least add, 'In my humble opinion', or some other disclaimer, or are you speaking for the some majority or other?

I do not allege any underhand dealings on the part of the Bush administration prior to Sept 11
No, not underhand dealings, but you did say that was criminally ignored until it was almost too late. . As I said there is an enquiry going (sponsored by Democrats), trying to prove just that, with little success, I may add.

As for the rest of Mr Young's spiteful retort against Europe, reading through it again I got quite breathless at the relentless wave of scornful adjectives poured over our poor little heads!;-)

Spiteful, 'moi', I think not, I'm really just a pussycat. You can't deny that many of the leading lights of the EC, are, or have been the subjects of various fraud enquiries. Prodi, Kinnock, Schreyer, Reding, Neilson, Patten, and Likkanen from the Eurostat enquiry, Chirac, Shroeder, the subject of ongoing invetigations in their own countries. Giscard d'Estaing, the writer of the 'New Constitution', involved in the Elf scandal. The list goes on.... and I only called them a 'corrupt, lying bunch of crooks', quite mild in the circumstances, but then, I am a pussycat! :-). Doesn't take much to get you all a tremble, does it?

That legacy is being sold out by the current cabal
How so? just one or two examples would do. Solipsisms not accepted, facts would do. :-)

maybe the protest will be as well attended as this one on October 25, documented on the the aptly named "Belligerent Bunny Blog"

http://petbunny.blogspot.com/2003_10_19_petbunny_archive.html#106711801890999845

Arrgh! Apologies, of course, I meant "not not tugging the forelock to another" not "not tugging the forelock to another." But it seems that ernest was perceptive to understand me anyway, for which thanks.
"Are you suggesting that the path taken by our politicians (of all parties), in order to get us into Europe, have been anything less than traitorous?"
Yes.
"Did you mean Iraq, or Iran?"
I said "Iran" and despite the solecism corrected above, I meant Iran. I understood that Iraq was a secular state under Saddam. As you object to "athiests", perhaps you would prefer to form links with states where they find it hard to get all the government jobs, or any jobs. Do you include Tony Blair as an "athiest"? If so, he will be disappointed. Perhaps you will next suggest that he remove his children to a non-denominational state school. Your swipe at the Germans, as I understand it, seems to take in the "Christian Democrats" which may surprise and offend them.

Dave,

In such a generalised remark, the intention was really to suggest that they were either one, or some, or all of the degrees of villainy that I called them.

The corrupt category seemed to be the most popular!

I do not object to atheists per se, in fact I have sympathy for them with their narrow mindedness, it is just when they try to stuff their lack of belief onto every one else, that I get a bit irate. I find the idea of 'separation of Church and State', to be flawed, and a denial of our collective culure, and as such, just another tool of the 'political correct' crowd. As mentioned before, this is really a whole new discussion in itself.

The difference between Afghanistan and Iraq, or even between Iraq and Iran, would seem to represent the two ends of the spectrum. The 'happy medium', must lie some where between the two, but some acknowledgement to the 'founding faith' of the country, would, IMHO be essential. It gives some sense of unity, even to the atheists among us, whether that faith is Christian or Muslim is really immaterial.

Enough , getting well off track here. Thank you for the discussion, I hope we cross swords again.....:-)

Ben does not speak for me re: Bush nor does he speak for the bulk of the people I know -- and I live less than 60 miles from the heart of New York City. And yes, Ben, I do know the intelligent city set despite living here in the backwoods ... even have some of those fancy graduate degrees from them there prestigious schools that so impress in the NY Times Review of Book readers.

I experienced the hatred of many Britons for Americans during a trip in the UK in 02. My husband and I booked ahead for 2 nights at a B&B in the Cotwolds. The couple who owned the business could barely contain their dislike for us as Americans from the moment we were met at the door and didn't have the right accent. I know Britain is not exactly known for warm or gracious service, but this extended to snide comments about the stupidity and moral inferiority of Americans delivered as we took tea, went out to walk the countryside, came back in etc. It was breathtaking, especially coming from someone who had made his comfortable bank savings by doing accountancy for the white regime in Zimbabwe before it fell.

It had been a decade since we'd been to Britain and the contrasts were quite pronounced. Many of the cities and towns were dirtier, more run down and sadder feeling than before; there were better restaurants in some places but service was just as resentful, if not more so -- except when the server was an immigrant or student from another country working temporarily.

I suspect that one reason for the most recent surge of resentment against the US lies in the English dislike of "fusses". The US is by any measure making a strong "fuss" in response to 9/11 and that means that Britain must choose between stark alternatives on several fronts.

A second source for the resentment is that Americans no longer feel inferior to Brits. Insofar as the current President embodies a confident Americanism, I'm not surprised that he has become the target for that anger.

"like Israel, America is so convinced of the righteousness of its cause that it simply cannot conceive that it can be hated as much as it is. It is incredulous at the suggestion that it needs actively to win hearts and minds. It has also never bothered properly to understand Britain."

Israel understands very well that it is hated. But it has a formidable foe in the BBC et al. Melanie underestimates the singleminded drive to distort and malign Israel in the press of the UK and the continent.

Man is the missing link between apes and human beings.

Often the test of courage is not to die, but to live.

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