Oh Stephen, you give up too easily.

The prospect of inveterate smokers raising their filthy habit to a point of libertarian principle is laughable.

They raise this is a weasel response without once thinking of the freedoms of non-smokers to live free of their filthy habit. It is not a question of 'statism', 'tax-funded regulation' but one of the need for greater respect in public to behave with due care for others.

Let smokers do it in the privacy of their own homes and not in my face.

We were all born non-smokers and that should be the presumption in a public place.

GH - given the season, would you like a pumpkin head to put on that straw man?

The significant liberatarian objection isn't to smoking bans in stations/malls/the street, but to smoking bans in private establishments frequented by people who choose to smoke.

Can you explain why I should be prohibited from lighting up in my pub of choice, while you drink your drink of choice away from clouds of noxious fumes in your pub of choice?

John B

Alas, there are so few pubs/restaurants that do ban smoking. In any case, the smoking policy of a pub or restaurant is not and should not be the main reason for patronage. Is there not a case to argue that the market fails in this instance? Consider the facts:

1) Most people do not smoke and do not appreciate breathing other's smoke.
2) Nearly all pubs and restaurants allow smoking.

A case for legislation?

JB,

A pub, restaurant, cinema, theatre etc is NOT a private place even if it is privately owned. They all subject to various public licenses over safety, health regulation, fire exits etc. And rightly so.

That's why.

Pubs, restaurants, etc -are- private places, legally. That's why they can refuse to let you in for wearing trainers...

Howard Shaw has a point - I'm surprised there aren't more non-smoking bars (I've noticed a significant and increasing number of non-smoking restaurants). Maybe there's room for entrepreneurs to make some cash here?

If such ventures didn't make money, mightn't that show that aside from a vocal minority, most pub-going non-smokers are willing to sacrifice clean air in favour of getting to spend time with their (sexy, witty and cool, obviously) smoking acquaintances?

My point is that the state of the air is only a minor consideration when selecting where to go - the quality of food, drink & service remain the main determinant. This undermines any 'market' solution to the problem.

Possible legislation does not have to be a blanket ban but could take the form of an increased cost of licence to allow smoking on premises or a quota system for issues of smoking licences & non-smoking ones to ensure there are a mix of establishments available. Wouldn't choice thereby be increased?

After all, why should the freedom to smoke be put above the freedom to breath clean air?

Well said, Stephen. Nothing becomes a man like the manner of his admitting that he was totally, utterly, irredemably, embarassingly wrong bordering on temporarily insane.

Good man, that.

My theatre group (The Richmond Shakespeare Society) who (plug, plug!) offer ten excellent shows a year at their home in the Mary Wallace Theatre in Twickenham, started offering two, then three, performances a week during which smoking was forbidden in the Bar. This was so successful that now they have a no-smoking policy for the entire run of a production.

Give it time, opinion and the market will find their own levels.
David Duff

It's become acceptable in the West for people to start talking about legislation and banning things they don't like especially when the subject is smoking. Isn't it better to start tackling the problem in public and private places with adequate ventilation and other essentially technical methods of nuisance-avoidance before we start making criminals of people ?

That's okay, Mr. Pollard. All of us have our moments of weakness every now and then. That's why we need to stick together, to provide support for one another when necessary, when statism tempts us.

That's what you get for writing in the Independant, I guess..

I'm not so sure you're wrong. We don't let people defecate in public places - is that wrong too?

But we do let people defecate in public places. You can't defecate anywhere you like but you have the option to defecate in a certain designated area should you wish.

David Duff - at the risk of being risqué, there is another by-product of metabolism that finds its own level - and it has "hits" as an anagram.

As a non-smoking Brit who lives in the Los Angeles area, while I freely admit to enjoying food better in restaurants now that smoking is banned, I am also offended by the completeness of the ban. There is NO provision for exceptions, as far as I know. It is being done in the worst, nanny-state, tyranny-of-the-majority way.

At the very least, why not allow for restaurants to set aside 'smoking areas', subjects to restrictions that prevailing air current patterns must blow *from* non-smoking *towards* smoking areas ? It is trivial to put in place 'extractor fan' type set-ups that would have that happen. There are even chains of restaurants that *already* have such fans in place. (Concurring with Marcus)

The practical result of the ban has been the cluster of smokers lurking outside restaurants, usually right next to the entrance, so that tables near the entrance are *still* getting the smoke.

I find myself curious about what's next ... bans on 'personal colognes' ? Bans on certain offensive visuals - too bright colours, certain polyester plaids ?

A stopped car does not imply a dead driver.

To be poor without bitterness is easy; to be rich without arrogance is hard.

I can't understand why a person will take a year to write a novel when he can easily buy one for a few dollars.

I completely agree with Alisair. It's too one-sided. I'm a non-smoker myself, but firmly believe in everyone else's constitutional right to light up a butt!

Regardless of the issue blanket bans will always impose the will of the majority on the will of the minority. It's easy to agree with a ban when the issue is in your favour and particularly when it requires no effort from yourself to maintain it. We already have speed limits any yet so few adhere to them because it requires a sacrifice from the individual, one which most are not willing to make.

On a larger scale we are all smokers. Every car journey we make, every light bulb and computer we switch on, everytime we turn on the central heating adds another nail in the coffin for our whole planet's ecosystem. Are we as non-smokers willing to make a similar sacrifice to the one we are asking smokers to make.

Let us say that in 2020 there is a worlwide smoking ban and smoking has been erradicated. Is this the final chapter? I don't think so. Other similar issues will arise which also prompt blanket bans, many of which will not be in your favour and will require a sacrifice from you. Are you willing to stop eating meat, to have the control of your car removed from you, to have alcohol banned, to be forced to run 20 miles a day to get medical treatment, to lose the right to abortion, etc. etc.

Imposing a smoking ban may be the first aim of anti-smokers but it would set a lasting precendent for the future. If you agree with imposing a smoking ban based on a health and rights agenda them be prepared to make sacrifices yourself in the future over your lifstyle and personal pleasures.

I strongly support allowing the market to make its own decisions. This would provide establishments which do not allow smoking, those that do and those which provide both environments. It has worked before and is the sensible way forward.

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