Er, you mean to say that Tebbo got it right?

No - badly expressed on my part. I meant that many wouldn't even conceive what it meant - partly because of their own feelings and partly because of the way they are treated by others. As a general rule it seems to me that Americans welcome immigrants who embrace America; we remain far too grudging.

But patriotism shouldn't just be blind "my country right or wrong" - this love should be based on the values the country embodies, like freedom, democracy, human rights: Americans welcome immigrants who embrace American VALUES.

I have lost count of the number of Britons who have asked me, "Why in the world would you ever want to move away to America and live in this hellhole?" It's really quite sad.

Er, that quote above should be "Why would you ever want to move away from America and live in this hellhole?" Sorry.

America welcomes immigrants because it is a nation of immigrants - or a nation of colinists might be more accurate. Thus they have a far more flexible concept of nationality - the whole melting pot thing with IRish/Italian/Jewish/etc. Americans.

Patriotism's fine, but nationalism, which is often what Americans feel, blinds - and the "we're the best" attitude endorsed by Stephen is nationalism.

Good stuff, but I don't think the cricket test would be a mystery at all. It is well known that in international competitions recent American immigrants keenly support their homeland above the US as a general rule. It was this disloyalty Tebbit was highlighting.

My estimation of Beckham has certainly risen.

Oh God, the cricket test.

Personally I couldn't give a damn if Indian immigrants cheer for India in the Cricket (though it'd be nice if they switched loyalties to England if India gets hammered...). It's when it comes to a shooting war that matters.

The immigration situation in America is not perfect but they've got it far more right than much of the EU. In America they tend to let people in on a rights/responsibilities basis and genuinely welcome them if they are prepared to buy into the various national values. In much of Europe we seem to have this politically correct culture in which nothing must be demanded of people immigrating to Europe - but then we hate them! Worst of both worlds.

I say let the ones who want to buy into the project come, be they black, white, brown, yellow or beige. Let the ones who don't go packing because if they don't want to there are plenty of people who DO want to. I don't like the Home Secretary, but I think he's right when it comes to getting a more active Citizenship aspect involved in the immigration process.

As for Beckham, yes it's excellent that he is prepared to speak out for a moderate but definite patriotism.

The immigrant coming to the USA is made welcome, provided that they are prepared to accept the American way of life, and yes, their work ethic. Anyone can get on here and improve their quality of life. You want more from life - you work harder. Seems fair to me, you know the rules before you come, if you do not like them, then do not come.

EU and UK immigration has different rules, come, and all will be provided, keep yourselves to yourselves, do not even try to integrate and if anyone objects to your thirdworld lifestyle, then we will punish them with the full force of the law. No matter that your spitting and other habits have meant the resurgence of diseases like TB. Our laws don't apply to you, because, after all, you are 'foreigners', and really cannot be expected to behave in a civilised fashion. How very patronising!..

The difference - people go to the USA for the opportunity, they come to Europe for the handouts. Immigrants to the US are generally far more successful than those to the EU primarily because they are prepared to make the effort to integrate. If they don't, then they are on their way back home, no safety net here.

No one can blame anyone for wishing to improve their standard of living, but somehow, the better immigrants with something to offer seem to go to the USA, while those with little to offer go to the EU.

Personally, having been born and raised in the UK, including service in the Army, courtesy of conscription, I long ago lost any feeling of pride in the UK. There is very little left to be proud of, any sense of justice, fair play, democracy, honesty, integrity, respect and any desire to see a job 'well-done' have all gone. The pillars of the community have long lost any vestige of respect, who has any respect for the vicar, or the local policeman?, even the local GP is derided.

Perhaps Beckham, being the recipient of much flaattery from the 'pop' culture thinks that tabloids such as The Sun, are something to be proud of, or maybe it is the 'throw-up' culture of the football hooligan that he thinks is so great. Nowhere else is the grossest and most uncivilised behaviour considered to be laudable - or should I say 'cool'.

To have a sense of pride, you have to have something to be proud of, a sense of achievement would do for a start, a sports star and a few pop groups just aren't enough to cut it. The World Cup victory in '66 was about the last thing which bought everyone together in a feeling of community, oh! yes, and the Diana tragedy, and even that was soiled by the intra family squabbles, no dignity anywhere these days. The millenium celebrations were such an embassement, and just about finished any feelings that may have lingered. No - not a lot to encourage that feeling of belonging that a sense of pride engenders.

Aren't you glad you added comments?.

"You've picked the wrong town to be hung in, Mr Blaine," a commentator in the Sunday Times wrote. "What is clear from the start is that Londoners are not taking Blaine quite as seriously as he takes himself. ... Really, it makes you proud to be British."

The aove quote lifted from Drudge (9/18/03).

Really says it all, - that the Brits are a bunch of barbarians, and not just the 'great unwashed', but the so-called intelligent folk from the Times. 'What a bunch of sicko's'....... don't they know it is not right to mock the afflicted?.

Again, I ask the question - 'What is there to be proud of'?.

I think so.

I actually stumbled upon this site while searching for information about immigrating to the UK. America is many contradictions. We are supposed to be a nation of immigrants but we commonly hate/suspect/misunderstand each other. We are supposedly a "land of the free" but our communication channels are constantly under surveillance to the point that I cannot say without reservation that we enjoy freedom of speech. Much of this is due to the election of Bush II and September 11th, which initially paralyzed this country and now has us running around in circles of bad diplomacy, decreasing economy, political scandals and a general fear and loathing of each other and the world. Every day I grow more afraid and shocked at what "my" government does and I am powerless to stop it. I would love to immigrate to a country with values more similar to mine where I felt I had some significant and intelligent representation-but I know in a twist of irony that as an immigrant, I would be hated whereever I immigrated for the misfortune of being born in America. It is my crime, but believe me friends-it is also my punishment.

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